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Methuselas
Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Posts: 46
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 Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| ZeroZero wrote: | Hi Methuselas,
the current prototypes do not save any files (in what defined format they could anyway?). They also are not worked out editors, rather drafts/prototypes. To fill them with life I needed support I won't get, so I don't bother with it.
To provide backward compatibility is not an argument to deny planning. To support customers yesterdays version is, what a revision control system is for, so that you are able to anytime reproduce a customers version of any release. So all this "arguments" are bull to me and show the level of competence, at that all this should be handled. Well, not my type of wasting free time...
Denying a way of fast feedback also is so old-fashioned to me (I use email since the late 70's and meanwhile there are much more sophisticated ways to communicate in teams), that I had to laugh reading the arguments against it.
So I couldn't see it other than: bt builder was, is and always will be a one-man show that only is able to accept support in areas where coding is not affected. I think that way it will take another 10 years to become finished, if at all. |
Well, why can't we just get an XML dump of every file format BTCS has then? I'd much rather edit, by hand, XML files than use BTCS anymore. I don't want to deal with the 32d100 limit anymore. I want to be able to make spells like NUKE and DIVA. I want to make new monsters that can use all the slots I made that can't be used, due to the limitation of BTCS' save format. I'm sure I could sludge through making a map in XML that I like. I'm not sure how you'd do specials or anything, but I'd like to test the features I can't play with due to the engine limitations of BTCS.
For example, with Module XMLs, you can specify the type of wall tiles, using an integer. I'd much rather it be a string, as then it could be hooked to the wall.xml for each tileset. That way "dungeon" could be for the "dungeon" tileset, "city" for the "city" tileset and so forth. It's very annoying to have to create a testbed for new walltiles right now. Also, I'd like to have doors have the same features as walls. In other words, I want to be able to create a different door every 4 doors.
Items could follow the BTCS, but in an XML format. Same goes for monsters.
I'm sorry, but I want to do some editing. Making tilesets that are never to be used isn't really fun. So far, I have (technically) 4 Dungeons, a Wilderness and City (just a repaint of the BTCS City) to choose from and even I don't have access to use them all, which is disappointing.
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"Using No Way as Way; Having No Limitation As Limitation". - Bruce Lee. |
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dulsi
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| Methuselas wrote: | | Well, why can't we just get an XML dump of every file format BTCS has then? |
Because it hasn't been a priority for me. I won't have time to look at it for the next few days but I'll see what I can do.
| Methuselas wrote: | | I'm sure I could sludge through making a map in XML that I like. I'm not sure how you'd do specials or anything, but I'd like to test the features I can't play with due to the engine limitations of BTCS. |
Maps are very painful to write by hand. The xml map in the sample was created by making the map in BTCS, modifying bt builder to write it to a file and editing it by hand to eliminate the empty space. If I add xml formats for everything I can add a converter so you make most everything in BTCS, convert to xml and do the final edits.
| Methuselas wrote: | | Also, I'd like to have doors have the same features as walls. In other words, I want to be able to create a different door every 4 doors. |
That should be doable now.
Right now I've been reworking spell effects to support bard songs. I've implemented purchasing new spell levels. |
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Methuselas
Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| dulsi wrote: |
Because it hasn't been a priority for me. I won't have time to look at it for the next few days but I'll see what I can do.
Maps are very painful to write by hand. The xml map in the sample was created by making the map in BTCS, modifying bt builder to write it to a file and editing it by hand to eliminate the empty space. If I add xml formats for everything I can add a converter so you make most everything in BTCS, convert to xml and do the final edits. |
The coverter is a great idea, but to start, we really just need dumps of the Vanilla BTBuilder in XML format. That way, when you add features, we can just merge our XML formats together. I did it all the time when I was modding for Civ III and IV. It will keep a format and standard, but allow us the ability to start modding, as well as check for bugs.
Item, Spells and Monsters would be where I would start first. Since you're re-working spells right now, that would be the most logical choice to prep for an XML dump to start.
| dulsi wrote: |
That should be doable now.
Right now I've been reworking spell effects to support bard songs. I've implemented purchasing new spell levels. |
The sooner I get modulus doors, the sooner you'll get a city tileset with four walls and four doors.
I'm glad that you're beginning to support bard songs. As soon as you've got sound support, I'll have an excuse to plug in my controller and I'll start working on making some music loops.
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"Using No Way as Way; Having No Limitation As Limitation". - Bruce Lee. |
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dulsi
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Methuselas wrote: | | The coverter is a great idea, but to start, we really just need dumps of the Vanilla BTBuilder in XML format. That way, when you add features, we can just merge our XML formats together. I did it all the time when I was modding for Civ III and IV. It will keep a format and standard, but allow us the ability to start modding, as well as check for bugs. |
Actually the converter is basically two seconds to implement. The code to read an xml file format supports writing as well. Once you have writing it is easy to add an option to load a BTCS file and write it to an xml file.
| Methuselas wrote: | | The sooner I get modulus doors, the sooner you'll get a city tileset with four walls and four doors. |
I meant that the current release should allow modulus doors. Does it not work? I've been meaning to look at the wall modulus code because it looked like it wasn't quite right at one point but I haven't gotten around to it. |
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Methuselas
Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| dulsi wrote: |
Actually the converter is basically two seconds to implement. The code to read an xml file format supports writing as well. Once you have writing it is easy to add an option to load a BTCS file and write it to an xml file. |
Then get to it, Son!  j/k
| dulsi wrote: |
I meant that the current release should allow modulus doors. Does it not work? I've been meaning to look at the wall modulus code because it looked like it wasn't quite right at one point but I haven't gotten around to it. |
I haven't tried it, since the 2.12 build. That was when the walls were broken for some reason. I'll try it with the new build, but I remember it not working, at all.
BTW, I've been toying with the idea of making a Mountain's tileset. Essentually, all the walls would appear to be mountain peaks. Any interest?
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Methuselas
Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:25 am Post subject: |
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Multiple doors are currently not working. Fighters still attack multiple times instead of with a multiplier (don't know if you ever got around to fixing that). Mage caused a crash in the Review Board, but could have been a random thing, due to my modding the roster.xml.
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dulsi
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Methuselas wrote: | | Multiple doors are currently not working. Fighters still attack multiple times instead of with a multiplier (don't know if you ever got around to fixing that). Mage caused a crash in the Review Board, but could have been a random thing, due to my modding the roster.xml. |
Hmm... Multiple doors seem to work for me. Can you send me the files that are causing trouble for you? I haven't done anything about fighter attacks yet. There is a problem I found with the character status screen. I'm going to try to put out a new release tonight with that fix.
I've created simple xml formats for items, spells, and monsters. Right now they aren't very good but I wanted to quickly have something for you. They will change in the future. |
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Methuselas
Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| dulsi wrote: |
Hmm... Multiple doors seem to work for me. Can you send me the files that are causing trouble for you? I haven't done anything about fighter attacks yet. There is a problem I found with the character status screen. I'm going to try to put out a new release tonight with that fix.
I've created simple xml formats for items, spells, and monsters. Right now they aren't very good but I wanted to quickly have something for you. They will change in the future. |
I must be doing something wrong with the Wall.XML, then. I set it up, just like the walls, including a "divide" division. Was I not supposed to do it that way? o_O I'll send you my xml file to look at. Also, do you want to use the new mainscreen png or do you want to use the one I sent you. I'll send you the new one, with the xml file for it, just in case.
Thanks for the xml support for items, spells and mosnters. Even if it's not the final format, it will give Zero something to use for his editors.
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"Using No Way as Way; Having No Limitation As Limitation". - Bruce Lee. |
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dulsi
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Methuselas wrote: | | I must be doing something wrong with the Wall.XML, then. I set it up, just like the walls, including a "divide" division. Was I not supposed to do it that way? o_O I'll send you my xml file to look at. |
You don't need another divide. You simply copy the walltype content and modify the modulus values.
| Methuselas wrote: | | Also, do you want to use the new mainscreen png or do you want to use the one I sent you. I'll send you the new one, with the xml file for it, just in case. |
I do like the book idea you proposed so feel free to send it.
| Methuselas wrote: | | Even if it's not the final format, it will give Zero something to use for his editors. |
I don't think Zero is interested in creating an editor with my current development setup. And I don't want to make the changes he requested in my development process.[/code] |
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Methuselas
Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, how exactly do you dump the XML stats? I tried all the command line actions, but none of them worked for me.
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"Using No Way as Way; Having No Limitation As Limitation". - Bruce Lee. |
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ZeroZero
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 197
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| dulsi wrote: | | I don't think Zero is interested in creating an editor with my current development setup. |
That is correct.
| dulsi wrote: | | And I don't want to make the changes he requested in my development process. |
And that is absolutely ok for me, after all it is your baby. |
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dulsi
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| Methuselas wrote: | | Okay, how exactly do you dump the XML stats? I tried all the command line actions, but none of them worked for me. |
btbuilder -xspell.xml -s sample
This dumps the spells into spell.xml. The spell.xml file is put in the same location as your roster.xml file. I forget where that is under windows (and it might change depending on your version of windows). Under linux it puts the file under .identical/btbuilder/<modulename>/. If you can't find, it search your hard drive for roster.xml or spell.xml after running the command above. This isn't very user friendly but you wanted something quick so that is what you got.
Dumping the monsters, items, or maps is just like printing them
btbuilder -xmonster.xml -m sample
btbuilder -xitem.xml -i sample |
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dulsi
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| ZeroZero wrote: | | And that is absolutely ok for me, after all it is your baby. |
I was looking forward to a map editor. Guess I'll just have to get all the functionality you wanted so you are enticed to try again.  |
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ZeroZero
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 197
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| dulsi wrote: | | ZeroZero wrote: | | And that is absolutely ok for me, after all it is your baby. |
I was looking forward to a map editor. Guess I'll just have to get all the functionality you wanted so you are enticed to try again. |
Lol, I was never asking for implement functionality now or immediately. I was asking to discuss and agree on what finally must be the formats to be supported, no matter how much of the final formats is integrated at any time. However there must be an agreement, what finally will be supported, i.e. what format the final versions will have.
As an example: You might not already have implemented "attacks per round" or "chance for critical hits", anyway you will agree that a character format must support that in the end.
So, I never asked to implement anything now, but I insisted (and still do) to agree on formats that in the end will be the final format for an object. Only that way an editor knows, what properties it needs to make editable, and also what dependant properties of other objects it needs to support, or can offer to link together. As an example: provided you and others agree, that abilities of characters (mountaining, detecting traps, black smith abilities etc etc) could be seen as a special form of spell, then that directly influences the spell editor. So this should be clear before anyone starts to implement anything... Just my 2 cents, and thats why I decided as I did. |
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dulsi
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:16 am Post subject: |
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Seems like the C64 BT people have decoded the animation format. We can't let them have all the fun. I've added SDL_mng library to bt builder. It appears to only support MNG-VLC (or at least I think that is what it tries to support). I've modified it to properly support files created by gimp. Hopefully that will work but it may require some modification once bt builder is tested with real files.
Also implemented is class changing at the review board. This should allow for the creation of the chronomancer from BT3. I haven't tested anything like that yet. The geomancer isn't quite possible yet as the rules for who can switch to a particular class don't support the needed checks. Also hit points and spell points may not be properly adjusted. Right now it is using the same rules as creating a new character. Not sure if changing class gets the same amount or if it is different in the BT games.
I'll probably do a new release soon so people can start playing with those features. |
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