Nonsense messages in the game?

Discussions and help for Bard's Tale II: The Destiny Knight
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jrodman
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Nonsense messages in the game?

Post by jrodman »

Spoilers, obviously.

I'm still sort of trying to make a good set of hints for Bard's Tale 2. I feel it really needs them.

Some things, I still have no understanding of. If they mean nothing, that's fine, I can build hints that suggest and then state that these can be ignored. But I don't want to be wrong.

1 - "Is it better to burn out or fade away?" (dargoth 1)

Does this "puzzle" in Dargoth's tower do anything? The official cluebook suggests it matters, as do some walkthroughs, but I got the destiny wand after answering it only with the "wrong" answer of fade.

2 - keep the faith (dargoth 2)

I sort of assume this means "keep searching for stuff" but it's kind of weird because that's the whole game.

3 - cryptic origins are typified in unnatural scheme (dargoth 2)

This SOUNDS like it's supposed to self-indicate that it's just random babble. Is it?

4 - The thirst brings an even score of jaunts (maze of dread 2)

Is this trying to hint something about the maze's death snare? Is
there anything about delivering an even count or the potions?

5 - To leave and rise, then seek 6 lies... (Oscon 2)

Why are they .. lies? Is this just poor word choice? In practice you
can solve the puzzle regardless, but it's quite odd.

6 - The Bezwark came / The axeman fell /
The key was dropped / within the well (Oscon 3)

What??? No idea what this is about.
Ether
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Re: Nonsense messages in the game?

Post by Ether »

1 - Doesn't the answer affect who you fight?
Agree in that it otherwise doesn't seem significant.

5 - Only other thing I can think of is that there should be a comma as in seek six, lies to the

I noticed that the others are not mentioned in the hint book.

Reading this and thinking about it, I'm guessing some stuff got left out, either due to time deadlines and/or beta-testing feedback. Or it was to foreshadow BT3 somehow, prior to Cranford leaving. Either way, these may have been related to the hypothetical deleted content.

I always found it odd that there was no Dargoth.
jrodman
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Re: Nonsense messages in the game?

Post by jrodman »

Ether wrote:1 - Doesn't the answer affect who you fight?
Agree in that it otherwise doesn't seem significant.
Yes, burn results in a trivial fight, while fade results in no fight. You get no loot, and it's not difficult, and there seems to be no ramifications, and it's in a tedious little room at the back of a field of anti-magic spinner-darknesses. In the IIgs version (which I played last) I could just phase-door in, skipping all that of course, but it still classifies as a big "what?" to me. It feels like something half-implemented.

I can say in the hints of course that I don't understand if it has any meaningful impact on the game, and certainly provides no useful information.
5 - Only other thing I can think of is that there should be a comma as in seek six, lies to the


Maaaaybe. But that leaves the sentence even more awkward, and breaks the meter. I think it's just bad doggerel.
I noticed that the others are not mentioned in the hint book.

Reading this and thinking about it, I'm guessing some stuff got left out, either due to time deadlines and/or beta-testing feedback. Or it was to foreshadow BT3 somehow, prior to Cranford leaving. Either way, these may have been related to the hypothetical deleted content.
Yeah, I agree most of this feels like half-finished stuff, or stuff edited without fixups. The Lagoth Zanta poem for the Destiny Stone feels similar. A big "huh?" to that thing about the last one drinking the poison pool.
I always found it odd that there was no Dargoth.
How do you mean? You can find him with a friend at 20N, 0E on level 5 of his tower.
Ether
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Re: Nonsense messages in the game?

Post by Ether »

jrodman wrote: How do you mean? You can find him (Dargoth) with a friend at 20N, 0E on level 5 of his tower.
I looked all over for Dargoth playing the C64 version 25+ years ago and never did find him. I came to assume that he wasn't in it.

Looking at the tower map. that location is out of the way, and obviously beating him wasn't necessary. I swear, though, I actually did hit every square of that tower years ago in a quest to fight him.
jrodman
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Re: Nonsense messages in the game?

Post by jrodman »

Ether wrote:
jrodman wrote: How do you mean? You can find him (Dargoth) with a friend at 20N, 0E on level 5 of his tower.
I looked all over for Dargoth playing the C64 version 25+ years ago and never did find him. I came to assume that he wasn't in it.

Looking at the tower map. that location is out of the way, and obviously beating him wasn't necessary. I swear, though, I actually did hit every square of that tower years ago in a quest to fight him.
He was in the US commercial release of the C64 version. Unless there were multiple such versions. It's easy to believe you missed him, or don't remember him. it's not a very memorable fight. It's also of course quite possible that some other variant or bootleg lacks the fight.
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Darendor
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Re: Nonsense messages in the game?

Post by Darendor »

The "burn out / fade away" riddle actually does do something, if I remember right.

Answering with (B)urn Out, you end up fighting a Torcher (I think). If the party is victorious, stairs up to level 2 appear somewere.

Answering with (F)ade Away causes the Magic Mouth to retort with: "Then do so." The event clears itself, as a "punishment" (i.e. never being able to get to level 2).

Of course, APAR bypasses the entire thing, so whatever. :?
altsan
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Re: Nonsense messages in the game?

Post by altsan »

BT2 does seem to have an unusual number of meaningless clues, I noticed that last time I played through recently. (MS-DOS version.)

Besides the ones already mentioned, I've never been able to get any meaning from:
  • One level down / map wall and door / look toward the corners / and read the four -- Dark Domain 2
  • Seek the four cornered letters -- Dark Domain 3
  • The Snare of Death right spins in whole / as fire-ones feast on the dead man's soul / yet savage words can cut the rock / and feathers split the headsman's block -- Tombs 1 (no idea on this one)
  • Frequency is the ultimate key -- Dargoth 1 (maybe this is a reference to having to go back to the magic mouth in the snare multiple times? But if so, it's pretty obscure, even by this game's standards.)
  • For as a snare it shall come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth -- Dargoth 3 (I don't remember this one ever meaning anything)
  • You sell your steel past dawn and drift, yet secret is the ancient gift to offer up a blessed lift! -- Crypt 1 (ditto)
The first two probably bug me the most, since it feels like they're really supposed to mean something.

(There are a couple of others which are clearly in-jokes and/or deliberately meaningless, like 'Hotwind' and 'SAMEN NGHOINT'.)
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Darendor
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Re: Nonsense messages in the game?

Post by Darendor »

altsan wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:41 pm BT2 does seem to have an unusual number of meaningless clues, I noticed that last time I played through recently. (MS-DOS version.)

Besides the ones already mentioned, I've never been able to get any meaning from:
  • One level down / map wall and door / look toward the corners / and read the four -- Dark Domain 2
  • Seek the four cornered letters -- Dark Domain 3
  • The Snare of Death right spins in whole / as fire-ones feast on the dead man's soul / yet savage words can cut the rock / and feathers split the headsman's block -- Tombs 1 (no idea on this one)
  • Frequency is the ultimate key -- Dargoth 1 (maybe this is a reference to having to go back to the magic mouth in the snare multiple times? But if so, it's pretty obscure, even by this game's standards.)
  • For as a snare it shall come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth -- Dargoth 3 (I don't remember this one ever meaning anything)
  • You sell your steel past dawn and drift, yet secret is the ancient gift to offer up a blessed lift! -- Crypt 1 (ditto)
The first two probably bug me the most, since it feels like they're really supposed to mean something.


(There are a couple of others which are clearly in-jokes and/or deliberately meaningless, like 'Hotwind' and 'SAMEN NGHOINT'.)
In order:

- This is a clue to map out the 3rd dungeon level and find the password to get to the 4th level of the Dark Domain.
- As above.
- This is a hint for the 2 passwords to access the Destiny Stone in Ephesus.
- I'm reasonably certain this refers to the Snare; specifically the magic mouth that has both useful and useless "tips".
- This contains the first of the three passwords to activate the portal up to the 4th level.
- I do believe this refers to the Sphinx and having to give the relevant password to access the stairs down/up.

- The "Hotwind" reference is fluff, designed to add immersion to the dungeon level. Or at least I think so, since there is literally no reference anywhere else.
- "SAMEN NGHOINT" translates to "MEANS NOTHING". Elsewhere in the dungeon is a clue that says something like "Heed not that which is beyond understanding."





Yeah. I played this game wayyyyy too much. :?
altsan
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Re: Nonsense messages in the game?

Post by altsan »

Darendor wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:02 am
altsan wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:41 pm
  • One level down / map wall and door / look toward the corners / and read the four -- Dark Domain 2
  • Seek the four cornered letters -- Dark Domain 3
- This is a clue to map out the 3rd dungeon level and find the password to get to the 4th level of the Dark Domain.
- As above.
Really? I thought the password in question simply has to be deduced from the question: "Speak the word to pass by." At any rate, I've explored and mapped the entire level many times and there is never any other clue pointing to it -- and no "letters" that I can find -- at least in the MS-DOS version. Porting issue maybe?
[*] The Snare of Death right spins in whole / as fire-ones feast on the dead man's soul / yet savage words can cut the rock / and feathers split the headsman's block -- Tombs 1 (no idea on this one)
- This is a hint for the 2 passwords to access the Destiny Stone in Ephesus.
Hmm, I don't really see how it relates. There are of course hints for that elsewhere in the Tombs, but those are on level 2.
[*] For as a snare it shall come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth -- Dargoth 3 (I don't remember this one ever meaning anything)
- This contains the first of the three passwords to activate the portal up to the 4th level.
Oops, yes, you're right. That'll teach me to skim over my notes too fast. :p
[*] You sell your steel past dawn and drift, yet secret is the ancient gift to offer up a blessed lift! -- Crypt 1 (ditto)
[/list]
- I do believe this refers to the Sphinx and having to give the relevant password to access the stairs down/up.
Maybe. Man, Cranford loved being super obscure sometimes...
- The "Hotwind" reference is fluff, designed to add immersion to the dungeon level. Or at least I think so, since there is literally no reference anywhere else.
- "SAMEN NGHOINT" translates to "MEANS NOTHING". Elsewhere in the dungeon is a clue that says something like "Heed not that which is beyond understanding."

Yeah. I played this game wayyyyy too much. :?
Doh. I knew it was nonsense, didn't realize it was that obvious though. I pegged it as a shout-out to "IRKM DESMET DAEM" from BT1 (which is where the "heed not" clue is, btw).

Thanks.
drifting
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Re: Nonsense messages in the game?

Post by drifting »

altsan wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:37 pm
Darendor wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:02 am
altsan wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:41 pm
  • One level down / map wall and door / look toward the corners / and read the four -- Dark Domain 2
  • Seek the four cornered letters -- Dark Domain 3
- This is a clue to map out the 3rd dungeon level and find the password to get to the 4th level of the Dark Domain.
- As above.
Really? I thought the password in question simply has to be deduced from the question: "Speak the word to pass by." At any rate, I've explored and mapped the entire level many times and there is never any other clue pointing to it -- and no "letters" that I can find -- at least in the MS-DOS version. Porting issue maybe?
You have to look at the map to see the letters. The walls in the four corners of the map spell the answer.

Map of the Dark Domain 3
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Darendor
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Re: Nonsense messages in the game?

Post by Darendor »

If it makes you feel any better, back in the day the only reason I got past this was because out of sheer frustration I typed in "PASS".

Lo and behold. :shock:
altsan
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Re: Nonsense messages in the game?

Post by altsan »

drifting wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:35 am
altsan wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:41 pm One level down / map wall and door / look toward the corners / and read the four -- Dark Domain 2
Seek the four cornered letters -- Dark Domain 3
You have to look at the map to see the letters. The walls in the four corners of the map spell the answer.

Map of the Dark Domain 3
Oh, for... :roll:

See, I had thought of that. But the way I map obscured it. I draw in one-way walls on both sides of the map, so my map didn't show the 'S's.

Basically I draw it like this:

Code: Select all

┌──╴		┌──┐
>   		┼  >
├──┐		└──┤
<  ┼		   <
└──┘		╶──┘
Thanks. That's one nagging puzzle solved. :)

It does bring up how the solvability of some clues can be really subjective depending on the player. I think the worst offender is the rock-paper-scissors puzzle in Oscon. See, I grew up with British English, where the game is known as "scissors-paper-stone'. First time I played, I realized what the puzzle wanted but spent ages trying to figure out why it kept refusing to accept "stone". I'd never even heard of anyone using the name "rock". This being before the Internet, I don't remember how I ever figured it out. Probably just a wild guess born of frustration. :?
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Darendor
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Re: Nonsense messages in the game?

Post by Darendor »

altsan wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:13 pm
drifting wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:35 am
altsan wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:41 pm One level down / map wall and door / look toward the corners / and read the four -- Dark Domain 2
Seek the four cornered letters -- Dark Domain 3
You have to look at the map to see the letters. The walls in the four corners of the map spell the answer.

Map of the Dark Domain 3
Oh, for... :roll:

See, I had thought of that. But the way I map obscured it. I draw in one-way walls on both sides of the map, so my map didn't show the 'S's.

Basically I draw it like this:

Code: Select all

┌──╴		┌──┐
>   		┼  >
├──┐		└──┤
<  ┼		   <
└──┘		╶──┘
Thanks. That's one nagging puzzle solved. :)

It does bring up how the solvability of some clues can be really subjective depending on the player. I think the worst offender is the rock-paper-scissors puzzle in Oscon. See, I grew up with British English, where the game is known as "scissors-paper-stone'. First time I played, I realized what the puzzle wanted but spent ages trying to figure out why it kept refusing to accept "stone". I'd never even heard of anyone using the name "rock". This being before the Internet, I don't remember how I ever figured it out. Probably just a wild guess born of frustration. :?
For me, the unsolveable clue was the solution to the magic mouth in the Snare for the Maze of Dread. I mean, "ENDURABLE"? How was I supposed to get that one? :?
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