Bt Builder

Discussions and help for the Bard's Tale Construction Set
caars
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:01 pm

Re: Bt Builder

Post by caars »

Found a bug.
To deal with bugs that *need* to be fixed the instant I find them (i.e. before a full updated version of the bardcore.zip module is posted), click on the link in my signature and click on the "Bardcore_Hotfix_README" file. It will always have instructions for how to quickly "patch" your copy of the module to get it working again.
If you open it and there is nothing there under HOTFIX, it means that there is no current "emergency fix" for the bardcore module: the current copy of bardcore.zip has every bug fix I know about in it...
Modules for BT Builder (still very much works in progress):
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing
caars
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:01 pm

Re: Bt Builder

Post by caars »

Ah CRAP!! We *really* need to change the convoluted way bt-builder stores files you are editing (i.e. it copes and edits the copies in a separate folder from the modules folder in the actual install). I finally made the "ultimate" mistake - I accidentally copied "the wrong way" (copied the install folder into the "edits" folder instead of the other way around). Just wiped out several hours worth of items, spells, and monsters for a module and there doesn't appear to be any way to get it back beyond just redoing it all from scratch.

Boo! And not the good kind of Halloween boo ... the 'I need to give the builder a break to cool down and resist the temptation to do some very heavy drinking while I rebuild all of the crap I just erased' type of boo...

...damn. Just damn.
Modules for BT Builder (still very much works in progress):
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing
Methuselas
Posts: 352
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:03 pm

Re: Bt Builder

Post by Methuselas »

caars wrote:Ah CRAP!! We *really* need to change the convoluted way bt-builder stores files you are editing (i.e. it copes and edits the copies in a separate folder from the modules folder in the actual install). I finally made the "ultimate" mistake - I accidentally copied "the wrong way" (copied the install folder into the "edits" folder instead of the other way around). Just wiped out several hours worth of items, spells, and monsters for a module and there doesn't appear to be any way to get it back beyond just redoing it all from scratch.

Boo! And not the good kind of Halloween boo ... the 'I need to give the builder a break to cool down and resist the temptation to do some very heavy drinking while I rebuild all of the crap I just erased' type of boo...

...damn. Just damn.

Yeah, I learned real quick a while back that once you do an edit, you copy out all your files from the default directory and back them up. Most of my module work was ruined that way. I only have one dungeon file that works properly now. Thankfully, all my items, spells and monsters are still intact.
"Using No Way as Way; Having No Limitation As Limitation". - Bruce Lee.

BTBuilder Stuff - https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing
Methuselas
Posts: 352
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:03 pm

Re: Bt Builder

Post by Methuselas »

Caars,


Now that I'm not getting my ass handed to me by those orcs, I'm really enjoying the story of your module so far. :)
"Using No Way as Way; Having No Limitation As Limitation". - Bruce Lee.

BTBuilder Stuff - https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing
caars
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:01 pm

Re: Bt Builder

Post by caars »

This is about to drive be batshit insane:

Here's the entire contents of my song.xml file (trying to tweak the bard songs, and learn how to change around what they do). Looking at this, can somebody explain to me why Cain's Carrack doesn't show up on the list of available songs for my bard to play?!

<data>
<song>
<name>Safety Song</name>
<music>music/safety_song.ogg</music>
<combatMusic>music/safety_song.ogg</combatMusic>
<multiManifest>
<restriction>noncombat</restriction>
<manifest>
<type>Block Random Encounters</type>
</manifest>
</multiManifest>
<multiManifest>
<restriction>combat</restriction>
<cureStatusManifest>
<type>Cure Status</type>
<status>paralyzed</status>
</cureStatusManifest>
</multiManifest>
</song>
<song>
<name>Santuary Score</name>
<multiManifest>
<restriction>noncombat</restriction>
<manifest>
<type>Trap Destruction</type>
</manifest>
</multiManifest>
<multiManifest>
<restriction>combat</restriction>
<bonusManifest>
<type>Armor Class Bonus</type>
<bonus>1</bonus>
<level>9</level>
<maximum>4</maximum>
</bonusManifest>
</multiManifest>
</song>
<song>
<name>Bellacose Ballad</name>
<multiManifest>
<restriction>noncombat</restriction>
<targetOverride>singer</targetOverride>
<healManifest>
<type>Hit Bonus</type>
<bonus>1</bonus>
<level>9</level>
<maximum>4</maximum>
</healManifest>
</multiManifest>
<multiManifest>
<restriction>combat</restriction>
<healManifest>
<type>Melee Damage Bonus</type>
<bonus><n>0</n><d>5</d><m>1</m></bonus>
<level>9</level>
<maximum>4</maximum>
</healManifest>
</multiManifest>
</song>
<song>
<name>Rhyme of Duotime</name>
<multiManifest>
<restriction>noncombat</restriction>
<regenManaManifest>
<type>Regenerate Spell Points</type>
<mana><n>0</n><d>2</d><m>1</m></mana>
<delay>50</delay>
</regenManaManifest>
</multiManifest>
<multiManifest>
<restriction>combat</restriction>
<bonusManifest>
<type>Attack Rate Bonus</type>
<bonus>1</bonus>
</bonusManifest>
</multiManifest>
</song>
<song>
<name>Marcela's Melody</name>
<multiManifest>
<restriction>noncombat</restriction>
<manifest>
<type>Light</type>
</manifest>
</multiManifest>
<multiManifest>
<restriction>combat</restriction>
<pushManifest>
<type>Push</type>
<distance>-3</distance>
</pushManifest>
</multiManifest>
</song>
<song>
<name>Kiel's Overture</name>
<multiManifest>
<restriction>noncombat</restriction>
<manifest>
<type>Compass</type>
</manifest>
</multiManifest>
<multiManifest>
<restriction>combat</restriction>
<targetOverride>all monsters</targetOverride>
<attackManifest>
<type>Damage</type>
<range>9</range>
<damage><n>1</n><d>6</d><m>1</m></damage>
<level>1</level>
</attackManifest>
</multiManifest>
</song>
<song>
<name>Cain's Carrack</name>
<multiManifest>
<restriction>noncombat</restriction>
<bonusManifest>
<type>Save Bonus</type>
<bonus>1</bonus>
<level>9</bonus>
<maximum>4</maximum>
</bonusManifest>
</multiManifest>
<multiManifest>
<restriction>combat</restriction>
<targetOverride>all monsters</targetOverride>
<targetedManifest>
<type>Block Spells</type>
</targetedManifest>
</multiManifest>
</song>
</data>
Modules for BT Builder (still very much works in progress):
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing
drifting
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:21 pm

Re: Bt Builder

Post by drifting »

caars wrote: <level>9</bonus>
This doesn't look right.
caars
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:01 pm

Re: Bt Builder

Post by caars »

drifting wrote:
caars wrote: <level>9</bonus>
This doesn't look right.
Awesome! *THANK YOU* - That did it. It's appearing now in the list of songs. Perfect example of me reading the correct thing in instead of actually *seeing* the mistake. Thanks for the fresh brain and extra pair of eyes...
Modules for BT Builder (still very much works in progress):
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing
drifting
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:21 pm

Re: Bt Builder

Post by drifting »

caars wrote:
drifting wrote:
caars wrote: <level>9</bonus>
This doesn't look right.
Awesome! *THANK YOU* - That did it. It's appearing now in the list of songs. Perfect example of me reading the correct thing in instead of actually *seeing* the mistake. Thanks for the fresh brain and extra pair of eyes...
Imo it's really, really difficult to see that sort of thing in XML. Something about all of the <>s and </>s just makes it hard to read.
Methuselas
Posts: 352
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:03 pm

Re: Bt Builder

Post by Methuselas »

Yeah, after doing extensive modding on Civ III, Civ IV and Civ V, I grew to loathe XML. :roll:
"Using No Way as Way; Having No Limitation As Limitation". - Bruce Lee.

BTBuilder Stuff - https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing
Methuselas
Posts: 352
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:03 pm

Re: Bt Builder

Post by Methuselas »

Got some Hydras for you, Caars. ;)
"Using No Way as Way; Having No Limitation As Limitation". - Bruce Lee.

BTBuilder Stuff - https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing
caars
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:01 pm

Re: Bt Builder

Post by caars »

Methuselas wrote:Got some Hydras for you, Caars. ;)
Ha ha ha! Which means now I have to remember whether or not there are already hydras in my module (and if not, put them in ...) Actually, I've also been working on one near and dear to my heart (that is designed to feel much more like classic D&D than "bardcore"), and that one will definitely have hydras in it. Technically they were 5-12 HD monsters (1 HD per head), but I think I'll go for the classic "9-headed" variety: 9 HD, with 9 attacks, 72 hp, and 1-10 damage per head (i.e. close to its D&D stats; the "bardcore" version will be more like the version from BT1, naturally). Most of the D&D module critters are encountered in groups of 1-6, but the hydra will probably be a 1 off (or 1-2)...
Modules for BT Builder (still very much works in progress):
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing
Methuselas
Posts: 352
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:03 pm

Re: Bt Builder

Post by Methuselas »

Image


You can thank me later. 8)
"Using No Way as Way; Having No Limitation As Limitation". - Bruce Lee.

BTBuilder Stuff - https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing
caars
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:01 pm

Re: Bt Builder

Post by caars »

Methuselas wrote:Image


You can thank me later. 8)
Love it! Definitely got a place for him...
Modules for BT Builder (still very much works in progress):
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing
caars
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:01 pm

Re: Bt Builder

Post by caars »

Okay, a few observations based on playtesting...

1. The ability to put it spell point regen delays into bard songs worked as planned. Very nice. (I know it's been in a for a while, but this is the first time I've kind of tested it, and it seems to work exactly as expected.)

2. Regarding tags and damaging spells: One open question I had is how the game would handle one spell with two damage effects controlled by tags that *both* applied to a particular monster. I now know: it reports each separately in the combat messages.

For example:
Damage: 15 points, Effect: Hobgoblin
Damage: 7 points + wither, Effect: Weak Humanoid

And let's say the monster was a hobgoblin that had been given both the Hobgoblin and Weak Humanoid Tag. The spell would say:

Hobgoblin takes 15 points of damage.
Hobgoblin takes 7 points of damage and is withered.

versus...

Hobgoblin takes 22 points of damage and is withered.

Also, *all* effects listed first are applied in a row followed by all listed second. So if there were two hobgoblins, it'd be:

Hobgoblin takes 15 points of damage.
Hobgoblin takes 15 points of damage.
Hobgoblin takes 7 points of damage and is withered.
Hobgoblin takes 7 points of damage and is withered.

versus...

Hobgoblin takes 15 points of damage.
Hobgoblin takes 7 points of damage and is withered.
Hobgoblin takes 15 points of damage.
Hobgoblin takes 7 points of damage and is withered.

Note that I'm not complaining ... this is simply a report of how the spell code handles and displays this sort of thing (since details like that are useful to know if you are building a module but not actually documented yet... that I know of ... Methuselah's guide is very good, but it doesn't have every niggling detail yet - nor should it).

Incidentally, if you are like me and don't like spells to "multi-list" a single monster in one casting, that does effect how you want to build your spells (e.g. I've been redoing a few spells and monsters to ensure that only one "damage" effect can possibly apply to a given monster). But it certainly makes the tagging system *extremely* useful and versatile.

Also...

In combat Bard songs currently literally only last one round. Every time, no matter what the effect. Even after all this time I don't think I realized that (again, not saying its bad, just a good thing to know). I'd kind of assumed AC buffs, Hit buffs, etc. would persist through the whole combat, even if damage, healing, and cures were one round only. Nope. One round and they're gone.

Interesting to know since that might really inform how you choose which Bard songs to use in combat (or, if you want to change around what they do, what you let them do): for example, I'm much more inclined to actually allow "Block Spells" since apparently it won't block them for the whole fight, but also switch the AC bonus from combat to non-combat (actually, in one module I made the song give you a 1 point bonus outside of combat, and a much more powerful 2-4 point bonus in combat, and greatly increased the number of bard songs available at level 1 to balance the willingness to potentially "waste" a round on an effect that does absolutely no good if your bard gets a poor initiative roll; and yes, I'm aware that "vanilla" btcs/bt builder makes the in-combat bonus from 1 to 18 points, but this module is much more conservative with AC bonuses, so in this particular module a 4 point AC bonus is a pretty big deal).

Finally, I haven't yet pinned down exactly what a "level increment" higher than 1 does. If set to zero, the effect is set as defined in the spell and that's it. If set to 1, the effect is per level, as expected. But if set higher, it acts a bit unexpectedly. I *think* it may be using (level / level increment) as a multiplier, but rather it rounds the number of dice and then rolls, or rolls and then multiplies I'm not quite sure yet.

For example:
Damage: 1d6
Increment: 5
Seems to do nothing at level 1 (since 1d6/5 would usually round down to 0), 1-6 at level 5, and 2-12 at level 10. If it is effectively doing nothing from levels 1-2, "half" at 3-5, 1d6 at 5-9, 2d6 at 10-14, 3d6 at 15-19, etc. OR if it is more like 1d6 * level/increment (with the result just rounded to the nearest whole number) I haven't figured out yet.

But I do know that something like:

AC Bonus: 1
Increment: 9

Does basically nothing until you are level 9. Then -1 AC from 9-17, then -2 AC from 18-26, etc. That's a *bit* different from what I was expecting (I figured it would "base" out at -1 AC, go up to -2 AC at 9, -3 at 18, -4 at 27, etc. Or possibly -2 at 10, -3 at 19, -4 at 28 depending on how exactly it applied the increment).

If you are clever you can "kind" of get it to replicate a "start at 1 but slow improvement":

e.g.
AC Bonus: 1
Increment: 0
AC Bonus: 1
Increment: 5

Actually gives you a bonus of 1 at 1-9, 2 at 10-14, 3 at 15-19, etc. (if you have it set to "not let like bonuses stack").

But if you want nice neat damage reports, realize that something like:

Damage: 1d6
Increment: 0
Damage: 1d6
Increment: 2

Will give you 1d6, plus 1d6 every 2 levels, but won't report the damage in one lump sum...

That's it for now. Like I said, not considering any of this "bugs" per se (unless that *isn't* what dulsi wants his program doing), but figure it's useful for anyone using bt builder to make modules to know exactly how some of this stuff is working in game...
Modules for BT Builder (still very much works in progress):
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing
Methuselas
Posts: 352
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:03 pm

Re: Bt Builder

Post by Methuselas »

caars wrote:Okay, a few observations based on playtesting..

2. Regarding tags and damaging spells: One open question I had is how the game would handle one spell with two damage effects controlled by tags that *both* applied to a particular monster. I now know: it reports each separately in the combat messages.
I wasn't aware that we had multiple tags implemented. I requested that a while ago. How did you end up using it?
For example:
Damage: 15 points, Effect: Hobgoblin
Damage: 7 points + wither, Effect: Weak Humanoid

And let's say the monster was a hobgoblin that had been given both the Hobgoblin and Weak Humanoid Tag. The spell would say:

Hobgoblin takes 15 points of damage.
Hobgoblin takes 7 points of damage and is withered.

versus...

Hobgoblin takes 22 points of damage and is withered.
Yeah, I hate to say it, but I don't like the top, either. I'd much rather see "Hobgoblin takes......." and have all the damage combined, including effects:

Hobgoblin takes 22 points of damage and is withered and poisoned!

Note that I'm not complaining ... this is simply a report of how the spell code handles and displays this sort of thing (since details like that are useful to know if you are building a module but not actually documented yet... that I know of ... Methuselah's guide is very good, but it doesn't have every niggling detail yet - nor should it).
I haven't updated the guide in a while...... that's on me. I haven't really seen much to garner updating it. To be honest, I didn't even think anyone was using it. This is the first comment I've had about it. :P

What was missing from the manual? (I really need to get off my ass and re-write some of the that I stripped from the BTCS manual. Most of it's been removed, or simply reworded, but there are still parts that I need to clean up.)

In combat Bard songs currently literally only last one round. Every time, no matter what the effect. Even after all this time I don't think I realized that (again, not saying its bad, just a good thing to know). I'd kind of assumed AC buffs, Hit buffs, etc. would persist through the whole combat, even if damage, healing, and cures were one round only. Nope. One round and they're gone.
From memory, the only songs I remember that were "combat only", in that they worked the entire combat, was the hit bonus, AC bonus and healing. If they only work for one turn, we're going to need a way to make a bardsword. Bards will become next to useless if they burn through bardsongs during long combats.

I haven't really play-tested with bards. I didn't actually use one until BTIII.
Finally, I haven't yet pinned down exactly what a "level increment" higher than 1 does. If set to zero, the effect is set as defined in the spell and that's it. If set to 1, the effect is per level, as expected. But if set higher, it acts a bit unexpectedly. I *think* it may be using (level / level increment) as a multiplier, but rather it rounds the number of dice and then rolls, or rolls and then multiplies I'm not quite sure yet.

That's it for now. Like I said, not considering any of this "bugs" per se (unless that *isn't* what dulsi wants his program doing), but figure it's useful for anyone using bt builder to make modules to know exactly how some of this stuff is working in game...
Is this part spells or songs? Spells it works fine. 1st level mage, casting arfi does 1d6. If the level increment is 4, at 5th level, it becomes 2d6. If it's for songs, it sounds like a bug.
"Using No Way as Way; Having No Limitation As Limitation". - Bruce Lee.

BTBuilder Stuff - https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing
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