University Project

Bard's Tale sequels related discussions
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Kity1st
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University Project

Post by Kity1st »

Hello everyone!

A few weeks ago a research project about "milestones" in the history of videogames started at my university. As a game which used the popular technology of moving through dungeons for exploring the world outside caves and tombs we decided to presentate "The Bard's Tale".

Although I've already played the PC version with DOSBox and read a few articles and manuals about the game, I am still a child born in the late '80s, so I'm afraid I can't really imagine the impressions the players had in 1985.

That's the reason why I'm telling you this: I hope, you have more informations and experience with "The Bard's Tale" Series. I look for your experience and knowledge as much as some helpful links. :)

At the moment I only have 2 questions.

1) How was playing BT for you? Were you really excited of the game or bored because of the time which you need to raise your group members? Which new featurs had the games which fascinated you?

2) How difficult was it? As I read in the manual there are no (or just a few) maps within the game or the manual. The advice of drawing your own map is given several times. Was this the usual way in these years or was it something different, maybe something annoying? Did players get any other help or sales gimmics?

Please help me with this task. I need to presentate my research in front of many many people during this exhebition and I am afraid I don't find enough infomation about the game(s).

May the bard songs be with you!
~ Kitty 1st
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ZeroZero
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Post by ZeroZero »

Hi Kity, I am a user who bought the C64 version in 1985. Being a German, and although there was a German version, I bought the english version.

Maybe you like to create polls for your statistic questions here?
See this link: How to create a poll

This is like a voting, so your statistic could be made easier.

As for your other questions, I will answer later in detail, it now is 5 am and I need to get some sleep.
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ZeroZero
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Post by ZeroZero »

Hello Kitty again,

having had some good sleep and lunch too, I am now going to answer your questions in detail.

Statistical data of me:
male, 48 years old, German

Personal Game data:
Version: Commodore 64, English, disk
Kity1st wrote:How was playing BT for you?
It was really exciting! There were other round based RPGs ("dungeon crawlers") before, but this was the first one fascinating me. It kept people up for nights, and that for months. People played alone or in groups. It was a breakthrough in computer games, in particular because many people, like me, were pen and paper RPG players, and BT was the first one that gave almost a real look and feel like playing in a group at a table.
Kity1st wrote:Were you really excited of the game or bored because of the time which you need to raise your group members?
Not bored at all! Once you got your group going (level 2-3) all went very smooth, and the time until then was needed to get familiar with the game controls and the spell abbreviations.
Kity1st wrote:Which new featurs had the games which fascinated you?
It was the first one (that I know of) that had an "ego view", i.e. a pseudo 3d view to the area instead of a top view. It used animated monster graphics, which was nice for the atmosphere. It was very intense and complete.
Kity1st wrote:How difficult was it?
It was easy to hard, lol. It depended, at what level you tried to solve puzzles. Some puzzles required certain items, and some opps could only be defeated with a highly raised party.
Kity1st wrote:As I read in the manual there are no (or just a few) maps within the game or the manual. The advice of drawing your own map is given several times. Was this the usual way in these years or was it something different, maybe something annoying?
Yes, this was the usual way, since the memory restrictions of early 8-bit home computers didn't allow automapping (although some later RPGs tried to implement it, more or less satisfactory). And more important: Drawing the maps really was a large part of the fun with the game, which only was a bit hard in the beginning until one found out, that the Bard's Tale dungeon maps were "wrap-around", i. e. if you leave them on the left side, you step in on the right side again. There were no maps at all included in the game except the city map, but even that did not contain all details. P&P players anyway were used to paint maps.
Kity1st wrote:Did players get any other help or sales gimmics?
There was an installation manual with it, that also explained very well all basic features of the game and contained the spell book. Also a coloured map of the city was included as sales gimmick. A hint book was also available, but not included.


Here in the Adventurers Guild you find many original game versions of it, so that you could play it yourself to get an impression. You also find screenshots and the manuals here. Have a look here: The Adventurer's Guild

Another resource is Bard's Tale Online.

Hope this helps a bit, you can also google for "Tales of the unknown".

Greetings, Martin
 
Kity1st
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Post by Kity1st »

Hiho Martin,

Thank you very much for this extensive answer!
Polls are not necessary, because I don't make a statistic. I am more interested in personal impressions, just like you gave me yours. :)

ZeroZero wrote:Hello Kitty again,

having had some good sleep and lunch too, I am now going to answer your questions in detail.

Statistical data of me:
male, 48 years old, German

Personal Game data:
Version: Commodore 64, English, disk
Kity1st wrote:How was playing BT for you?
It was really exciting! There were other round based RPGs ("dungeon crawlers") before, but this was the first one fascinating me. It kept people up for nights, and that for months. People played alone or in groups. It was a breakthrough in computer games, in particular because many people, like me, were pen and paper RPG players, and BT was the first one that gave almost a real look and feel like playing in a group at a table.
Just as a question of personal interest (I'm a P&P-Player too):
How popular were roleplaying games like D&D or DSA in the '80es?
Kity1st wrote:Which new featurs had the games which fascinated you?
It was the first one (that I know of) that had an "ego view", i.e. a pseudo 3d view to the area instead of a top view. It used animated monster graphics, which was nice for the atmosphere. It was very intense and complete.
The first well-known RPG with "ego view" was wizardry but as far as I could find out in the last few minutes it was not a colourful as (even the C64-version) BT1.
Kity1st wrote:As I read in the manual there are no (or just a few) maps within the game or the manual. The advice of drawing your own map is given several times. Was this the usual way in these years or was it something different, maybe something annoying?
Yes, this was the usual way, since the memory restrictions of early 8-bit home computers didn't allow automapping (although some later RPGs tried to implement it, more or less satisfactory). And more important: Drawing the maps really was a large part of the fun with the game, which only was a bit hard in the beginning until one found out, that the Bard's Tale dungeon maps were "wrap-around", i. e. if you leave them on the left side, you step in on the right side again. There were no maps at all included in the game except the city map, but even that did not contain all details. P&P players anyway were used to paint maps.
This "wrap-around" is the reason why I'm stuck in a dungeon in Bard's Tale 3 right now. The first one.. embarrassing.. ^^;

As someone with a very short time table I had my problems with drawing maps but I guess it would have been easier if I'd had read the manual first (rtfm, we all know..) and I'd had seen the advice about the level size.
And if I'd had used checkered paper, not blank paper...
Kity1st wrote:Did players get any other help or sales gimmics?
There was an installation manual with it, that also explained very well all basic features of the game and contained the spell book. Also a coloured map of the city was included as sales gimmick. A hint book was also available, but not included.
The installation manuals are the manuals in the Download Area in the Adventurer's Guild, right? Or are these the hintbooks? They are indeed really detailed and have a funny writing style. (f.e: "A resurrected character reains all the items, gold and experience points he had before dying, but he comes to life ith only 1 hit point. When he finds out how much it costs to be resurrected, he may turn over in his grave.")
Here in the Adventurers Guild you find many original game versions of it, so that you could play it yourself to get an impression. You also find screenshots and the manuals here. Have a look here: The Adventurer's Guild
That's what I really love this site for. :)
Thanks to this collection I may be even able to play a few bard songs on my mandoline and present them too.

My main problem is the time I have left. We don't have much time for the project at all and the single milestone parts should be almost ready tomorrow, not later than next sunday because of other work which is still left.
So I don't have the time for testing all possible version. I tried getting the amiga version running but it didn't work because of different reasons and with the DOS Version I only played the beginning of each part for a short video of 5-7 minutes. (Don't get it the wrong way, I played hours to find many things out I could have known by reading the manual and such things and I want to go on with playing irrespective of the project.)
Another resource is Bard's Tale Online.

Hope this helps a bit, you can also google for "Tales of the unknown".

Greetings, Martin
 
Thanks god for the oracle of google. ^-^
And yes, you helped me. :)

I read the manual (finally *hrhr*), another dozens of pages and I have nearly enough material for "my" poster and the more detailed things on my table. There are just still a few questions left:


1) In the manuals I read something about characters changing "to the dark side" and changing their personality. How is this ment? Is it just a metaphor for the heroes becoming stronger and more talented or do they really say "No, I don't want to fight for you" and turn their "alignment" to chaotic evil? (I know, D&D alignments doesn't matter "yet" within the games of the '80s, but you know what I mean.)

2) What is this "Doppelgaenger"-Monster? How do you know it's in your group? (And what happends if you kill it? Where's the original member?)

3) The manual in "The Bard's Tale 2" opens with a letter from Saradon, which explains the main quest. When I start the game, I see no questgiver. Is something missing in the version (DOS, downloaded) I have or don't you get a hint within the play?

4) Does anyone have a (in best case high resolution) picture of one of the Command Summary Cards?

5) Something about the versions: The BT2-Manual says something about saving the Special Member to the disk. I couldn't find something like this in the manual of the first game. Was this function not available in BT1 or was it just not mentioned? (Or do I need new glasses?)

6) Similar questions about special places in dungeons (with darkness etc).?

That's all for tonight :)

~ Greetings, Kitty Ist


Edit: 7) Which controling methods were popular in the late '80es? When did mouses and joysticks appear on private computer? (And which one was more popular? I heard joysticks were prefered.)
dulsi
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Post by dulsi »

Kity1st wrote:1) In the manuals I read something about characters changing "to the dark side" and changing their personality. How is this ment? Is it just a metaphor for the heroes becoming stronger and more talented or do they really say "No, I don't want to fight for you" and turn their "alignment" to chaotic evil? (I know, D&D alignments doesn't matter "yet" within the games of the '80s, but you know what I mean.)
There is no alignment in the game. It is just there to make the world seem more alive.
Kity1st wrote:2) What is this "Doppelgaenger"-Monster? How do you know it's in your group? (And what happends if you kill it? Where's the original member?)
Doppelgaenger can take the form of one of your characters if you have an empty slot in your party. In that case you get two characters with the same name. I'm not sure if you can kill the Doppel first or if the first one you kill is your party member. There is a spell to reveal which is the doppel in which case you can kill him without accidentally killing your characeter,
Kity1st wrote:3) The manual in "The Bard's Tale 2" opens with a letter from Saradon, which explains the main quest. When I start the game, I see no questgiver. Is something missing in the version (DOS, downloaded) I have or don't you get a hint within the play?
Games were crammed into small amounts of memory at the time. You were expected to read the manual at the time. UIs were generally not intuitive and required looking in the manual to play.
Kity1st wrote:5) Something about the versions: The BT2-Manual says something about saving the Special Member to the disk. I couldn't find something like this in the manual of the first game. Was this function not available in BT1 or was it just not mentioned? (Or do I need new glasses?)
This is an addition they made with BT2. In BT1 you had 6 party members and a special slot. The special slot character disappeared when entering the AG. In BT2 you have 7 party members. Characters that used to go to the special slot are party members that can be saved like others.
Kity1st wrote:6) Similar questions about special places in dungeons (with darkness etc).?
I don't understand the quest. BT2 introduced the ability to save a game in a dungeon. Is that what you are asking about?
Kity1st wrote:Edit: 7) Which controling methods were popular in the late '80es? When did mouses and joysticks appear on private computer? (And which one was more popular? I heard joysticks were prefered.)
Everyone had a keyboard. Joysticks were probably the second most common but that is a guess.
Kity1st
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Post by Kity1st »

dulsi wrote:
Kity1st wrote:6) Similar questions about special places in dungeons (with darkness etc).?
I don't understand the quest. BT2 introduced the ability to save a game in a dungeon. Is that what you are asking about?
No, sorry for this confusing question.
I didn't complete any dungeon in BT1 yet but walked a few hours through one dungeon in BT3 and there were parts where torches and light spells didn't work. Manual and Maps say, there are different kinds of speciel fields in dungeons which have an effect on the whole group or parts of it.

Was this something which was invented later or was it just not mentioned in BT1 (and BT2?) before?
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ZeroZero
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Post by ZeroZero »

Hi Kitty,

for your questions, as far as they haven't been answered yet.

1) In the manuals I read something about characters changing "to the dark side" and changing their personality. How is this ment? Is it just a metaphor for the heroes becoming stronger and more talented or do they really say "No, I don't want to fight for you" and turn their "alignment" to chaotic evil? (I know, D&D alignments doesn't matter "yet" within the games of the '80s, but you know what I mean.)

A) In BT you had the option to "party attack", i. e. fight against the other characters. In BT1 there is a field in a dungeon, at that one party member is forced to turn hostile and start an in-party fight. Can only assume the manual referred to this facts.

7) Which controling methods were popular in the late '80es? When did mouses and joysticks appear on private computer? (And which one was more popular? I heard joysticks were prefered.)

A) Joysticks and keyboards were equally popular as game controls from the beginning of the early consoles to the early "home computers". Which was used depended strongly on the type of game as well as on the players preference. Mice were invented by Apple in the mid 80s and the Commodore 1531 mouse appeared about that time too. It was very expensive and not common for games at all to the end of the C64. Nevertheless it was used (near Joystick) for the graphical operation system GEOS on the C64.

6) Similar questions about special places in dungeons (with darkness etc).?

A) This special areas were mentioned vaguely in the hint books and very little in the manual too. It was part of the fun to detect the several nasties the coders prepared for the gamer. Meanwhile others and I have explained the game file formats in a great extent here in the forums, at least for the apple and C64 versions. Dulsi also is coding a new framework to create BT-style like RPGs (BT Builder).

A remark from me: yes, Wizardry was the first game with a pseudo 3d dungeon view, but it was else not at all comparable to BT. Also the Ultima series was a very famous RPG series in the early 80s, but it's fans will forgive me, if I vote for BT being the first, very complete, dense, computer as master supported RPG ever for small computers (There have been RPGs from the mid 70s on several systems, but they were not comparable and hardly anyone had access to such machines). So the 1st real and complete round based RPG to me is "Tales of the Unknown - The Bard's Tale" from the "Tales series", which converted, due to its popularity, to the "BT series".

E D I T

Just as a question of personal interest (I'm a P&P-Player too):
How popular were roleplaying games like D&D or DSA in the '80es?

They were by far not as popular as regular card, board or dice games (at least not in Germany). But being a student at that time, it was easy to find a party in almost any smaller town.
I was playing D&D, AD&D, Star Frontiers and Boot Hill, before I changed in about 1980/1981 to Midgard, a very detailed German system which resulted from a 1970s postcard game named Armageddon, and which after that was revived in a poor, lousy box version that is not at all comparable to that original, fantastic system.
DSA occured relatively late, and the first versions were meant for absolute beginners and were not taken serious by any long time p&p player.
Kity1st
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Post by Kity1st »

Hiho,

just a little question from university computer:

I've seen a few screenshots from BT1 were phrases like "facing north" were shown in the text frame. While playing the DOS-Version I haven't seen this anywhere, it first appeared in BT3. Is this a problem with my downloaded version, so the feature is just missing or depends this on the version you are playing?

Btw: I've seen a few people here are from germany. If you live in Berlin or visit Berlin on June 5th, feel free to visit the exhibition (where bard's tale is just a veeeeeeeeeeeery small part but still interesting). It's called "Lange Nacht der Wissenschaften", for more information visit http://www.langenachtderwissenschaften.de/ or send me a PM.

~ Greetings, Kitty
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ZeroZero
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Post by ZeroZero »

Kity1st wrote:I've seen a few screenshots from BT1 were phrases like "facing north" were shown in the text frame. While playing the DOS-Version I haven't seen this anywhere, it first appeared in BT3. Is this a problem with my downloaded version, so the feature is just missing or depends this on the version you are playing?
The only time I can recall the "facing" message on the C64 is using the "?" command. And that also works on the PC version. Else the party usually has a compass spell active to know its direction.
Ether
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Post by Ether »

Here's hoping my reply is not too late for you.

For starters, male, 35 years, USA, Commodore 64.
1) How was playing BT for you? Were you really excited of the game or bored because of the time which you need to raise your group members? Which new featurs had the games which fascinated you?
I loved it, obviously, given that I have taken the time to locate a Bard's Tale forum. I I was 12 or so when I first saw it; a friend of mine got it, watched him play a few times, so I wanted to get it. I was hooked. It was really the first RPG I had ever seen.
2) How difficult was it? As I read in the manual there are no (or just a few) maps within the game or the manual. The advice of drawing your own map is given several times. Was this the usual way in these years or was it something different, maybe something annoying? Did players get any other help or sales gimmics?
Once you advance past level 4-5, the battles aren't too difficult as long as you take your time through the dungeons. I must confess, though, that I had assistance. Whether it was a hint book or exploiting the Beserkers, there were ways one could get around the game's difficulty. I do think the puzzles and mazes in BT 1 and BT 2 were difficult. Maybe not so much on today's computers. Rmember, the Commodore 64 was considered slow by even 1985 standards, and it had no autosave, so retrying puzzles could be a tedious process.

The BT3 had easier puzzles, and the automap helped with some of the harder dungeon spots.

I did enjoy drawing maps in those types of games.

One note: In the C64 version, if you ran into a wall - even in darkness - in the BT1 or BT2, the word OUCH came on the screen. The BT3 did not do this. On the other hand, there was a very pronounced flash when teleported in the BT3, while it was a very small blip it BT1 and BT2. And that blip was not noticable in a darkness zone.
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Darendor
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Post by Darendor »

I'm posting this to reserve the right to answer this poll fully. Right now I'm taking a respite in an Internet cafe from being in the woods and I don't know when I'll be online again next. Maybe tonight if this Internet key works. :?
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Darendor
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Re: University Project

Post by Darendor »

My first foray into the Bard's Tale series of games began back in what I'm going to remember as the spring of 1987 when I came home after elementary school with my on-again/off-again "friend" Blair. He wanted to show me this cool game for his Commodore 64 called "Bard's Tale".

"Bard's Tale" turned out to be in fact "The Bard's Tale II: The Destiny Knight", and he allowed me to make a character that he'd add to his party. I made a human fighter and named him "Slasher".

It wasn't long before I had a copy of the game and so did a few other kids in our class/school. It became a competition of sorts to see who could figure out all the puzzles and beat the game.

Kity1st wrote:Hello everyone!

A few weeks ago a research project about "milestones" in the history of videogames started at my university. As a game which used the popular technology of moving through dungeons for exploring the world outside caves and tombs we decided to presentate "The Bard's Tale".

Although I've already played the PC version with DOSBox and read a few articles and manuals about the game, I am still a child born in the late '80s, so I'm afraid I can't really imagine the impressions the players had in 1985.

That's the reason why I'm telling you this: I hope, you have more informations and experience with "The Bard's Tale" Series. I look for your experience and knowledge as much as some helpful links. :)

At the moment I only have 2 questions.

1) How was playing BT for you? Were you really excited of the game or bored because of the time which you need to raise your group members? Which new featurs had the games which fascinated you?

2) How difficult was it? As I read in the manual there are no (or just a few) maps within the game or the manual. The advice of drawing your own map is given several times. Was this the usual way in these years or was it something different, maybe something annoying? Did players get any other help or sales gimmics?

Please help me with this task. I need to presentate my research in front of many many people during this exhebition and I am afraid I don't find enough infomation about the game(s).

May the bard songs be with you!
~ Kitty 1st
Kity1st
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Post by Kity1st »

Hi there!

Thank you for your answer, Darendor and also thanks to everyone else who posted here. It helped me a lot with understanding the game in a special way (sounds a little bit weird, I know ^^).
The exhibition is tomorrow night and there's still much work for me to do. I hope, there may be some people who take their time to discover the topic in a deeper way than the majority probably will do.

I made a little video (12 minutes) which should present "The Bard's Tale" with scenes from all three parts (although part 3 only got two or three minutes). Before I can publish it on youtube, I need to ask for a permission. If I get one, you'll be the first one who get the link and the possibility to see it. I hope, you don't be angry about a few scenes like fights with strong monsters from the maze of dread in the starter dungeon in BT 2. I'll never say it's a good video. There are many mistakes because I had to shorten it a lot. It will do for this one exhibition but not for deeper research.. ^-^;

Anyway. THANKS! to all of you. :)

~ Greetings, Kitty
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Dravrah
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enjoyed it

Post by Dravrah »

I played the game to the detriment of my health and my social life. It was back when 5.25" drives where around. 640k memory. One disk for images and one disk for the game. You had to swap the disks often. Mapped out every dungeon one square at a time. It was a very cool game even the Casio tone tunes still ring in my ears. Revisited the game in 2009 trying to relive my youth and was deeply disappointed with what I found. Things were a lot simpler back then I guess. The innocents of youth and all that :o
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