I have been experimenting with the conjuror, sorcer and mage staffs, and have found some fascinating characteristics beyond those that are documented:
All three of these staffs increase the character's spell points at a rate of +1, without needing to be equipped items.
The Conjurer staff has AC0 but it halves the spell cost of all spells, and significantly it does this without having to be equipped! As an object it cant be used in roaming or in combat.
The sorcerstaff has AC2, and has an unknown (non-offensive) combat spell.
The Mage staff has AC2, and, when equipped, increases the spell points at a rate of +2. As an object it cant be used in roaming or in combat.
Put all the above together and you have the possibility of staff combinations! - A character can hold two staffs, one equipped and one not equipped, and can get the benefit of both.
I'll jump to the chase, the optimum staff combination is as follow:
Mage staff (equipped) + conjurerstaff (unequipped)
This gives the following combined benefits:
* AC of 2
* Halves the spell points required for each spell
* Increases the spell points at a rate of +2
I have been in Kylearan's Tower and can report that the item drops there are brimming with these three staffs, so look for them there.
long winded explanation of a very weird spell point increase
long winded explanation of a very weird spell point increase
Last edited by Flanimal on Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
I wonder too. I suspect it might be a feature rather than a bug, as some objects 'work' without needing to equip them - keys for example.Caracas wrote:That's interesting. I wonder if the effect of the unequipped staff is a bug or actualy intended.
The quality of BT code is so high that I think a feature the more likely explanation.
That mage staff is the weirdest, as it increases sppt at rate +1 when unequipped, and at rate +2 when equipped!
It would be great to know if that is the spell.Caracas wrote:According to Maven, The Sorcerer staff does the Disrupt Illusion spell. I haven't verified it yet, but shouldn't be hard to check.
I returned to Kylearan's Tower and this time around I am not finding lots of staffs, so it would seem that item drops vary from occasionto occasion.
EDIT ok, I spoke too soon. On my second visit to the tower I again found lots of mage staff and sorcerstaff drops. No conjuror staff drops though. I suggest roaming around other dungeons to try to find some of those/
I think this behavior is platform dependent. In the MSDOS version, you must actually have the staff equipped in order to get any benefit from it. This doesn't surprise me, because in the Amiga version, my characters could use items without equipping them. I know the Bard could have the Fin's Flute equipped for the AC bonus, and have several horns in inventory to use in combat. I think I even remember that all my magic users could use fire horns and such.
Which brings up an interesting question... do you have to equip the Troll Staff or Troll Ring to get Hit Point Regen? And if not, do they stack?
Also, in the MSDOS version, the Mage Staff only gives +1 spell point regen. However, it works every round in combat. Which makes it easy to replenish your spell points if you want to do a Party Attack, and then just defend repeatedly. It's too bad this technique doesn't work on Spell Regen squares in the dungeon. It might make them actually useful. As it is, you have to sit there and wait so long it isn't even worth it.
I tested the Sorcerstaff by making a party of only five characters, and entering the Castle. I hit every random encounter square I could find, running from anything I encountered, until I found a Doppelganger. Then I killed off everything else and just defended until he jumped into my party. The Disrupt Illusion spell works against Doppelgangers, where the Disbelieve spell doesn't.
Which brings up an interesting question... do you have to equip the Troll Staff or Troll Ring to get Hit Point Regen? And if not, do they stack?
Also, in the MSDOS version, the Mage Staff only gives +1 spell point regen. However, it works every round in combat. Which makes it easy to replenish your spell points if you want to do a Party Attack, and then just defend repeatedly. It's too bad this technique doesn't work on Spell Regen squares in the dungeon. It might make them actually useful. As it is, you have to sit there and wait so long it isn't even worth it.
I tested the Sorcerstaff by making a party of only five characters, and entering the Castle. I hit every random encounter square I could find, running from anything I encountered, until I found a Doppelganger. Then I killed off everything else and just defended until he jumped into my party. The Disrupt Illusion spell works against Doppelgangers, where the Disbelieve spell doesn't.
I just discovered that my initial information is not entirely accurate, and that, something freaky has happened - and is continuing to happen.
Let me take you back to the beginning. I have 3 wizards (archmages) in my party. Only one of them had the mage staff, and his spellpoints alone incremented over time in dungeons.
All was normal.
Then I decided to take it upon myself to determine the exact behaviour of the three staffs, sorcer, conjuror and mage. I aquired all three and began my experimentation.
I cleared out all equipment from the three wizards inventory, and then transferred one mage staff for the first wizard, one conjuror staff for the second wizard, and one sorcerstaff for the third wizard. I didn't equip any of these staffs at this point.
It was at this point that I noticed that all three spellpoints were incrementing at +1, everywhere in the dungeon (i,e, I wasn't just standing in a sppt+ square).
It was at this point that I concluded WRONGLY that all three of these staffs have the effect of a +1 spellpt rate even when not equipped.
Let me jump right up to the present now I will explain why I had been wrong with my conclusion, and why I am even more astonished than ever with what I have seen:
Today I fired up my BT game, and stripped down my three wizards to each hold one staff of each of the three types again, unequipped. Sure enough, the sppts of these three wizards continued to increase at a rate of +1. (I was in Mangars tower, level 1 and level 2)
I decided to drop one of the staffs, and to my surprise all the sppts of all three wizards continued to increase. I moved around bit and changed levels just to check that I wasn't on a special square, and the increments continued.
I then progressively unequipped and dropped ALL items by ALL 6 characters, and got rid of my special character slot (demon lord). To my total astonishment, the sppts of the three wizards CONTINUED to increment!
So my new conclusion is that I seem to have unlocked something that continuosly increments my wizard's spellpoints. My wizards are extremely high level, but I don't think that has anything to do with this. This incrementing all started when I started experimenting with the three staffs. I strongly suspect the key moment may have been when I had the three staff types held by three wizards. Perhaps this state unlocked some secret feature of the game?
Of course, the sppts stop incrementing when they reach the spellcasters' maximums. So I simply kept casting RESTs to be able to see the continuous incrementing.
I am using the same standard tape image of the C64 game that I have been using for years, and until now it has behaved normally with respect to the sppts.
If anyone is interest in seeing this with their own eyes, then feel free to PM me and I will gladly send you my CCS64 snapshot image file which can be loaded into CCS64 emulator.
Perhaps I can fish out some older snapshot image files and attempt the repeat the staff 'magic trick'...
I feel a bit like the CERN scientists reporting their faster than light results. Like them, I invite the community to help me explain this discovery, and perhaps replicate it confirming it, or maybe even explain it with something that I have missed.
EDIT: Well I loaded a snapshot save of my party from 5 days ago, before I did my recent experiments with the staffs, the three wizards already were exhibiting the +1 sppt rate even when all items were dropped.
My chars have been carrying staffs for years so this feaky feature my yet have been triggered by some staff combination... but it could have also been caused buy anything as I can't pinpoint the moment it started.
I have 3 month old backup save of the same party, and the feature is not exhibited there.
Maybe the levels of the wizards has caused it. They were level 169 in the save that didn't have the feature, and are level 175 now. A ridiciously high level I agree, but these are my legitimately developed characters, developed from my childhood from level 2.
If any one has one of those cheating hex editors, please could you try testing a wizard with a level of 175+ to see if this sppt incrementing feature can be duplicated?
Again, if anyone would like to see this for yourself, I would be happy to send on the snapshot, or I'd be happy for anyone to host it or publish it.
Let me take you back to the beginning. I have 3 wizards (archmages) in my party. Only one of them had the mage staff, and his spellpoints alone incremented over time in dungeons.
All was normal.
Then I decided to take it upon myself to determine the exact behaviour of the three staffs, sorcer, conjuror and mage. I aquired all three and began my experimentation.
I cleared out all equipment from the three wizards inventory, and then transferred one mage staff for the first wizard, one conjuror staff for the second wizard, and one sorcerstaff for the third wizard. I didn't equip any of these staffs at this point.
It was at this point that I noticed that all three spellpoints were incrementing at +1, everywhere in the dungeon (i,e, I wasn't just standing in a sppt+ square).
It was at this point that I concluded WRONGLY that all three of these staffs have the effect of a +1 spellpt rate even when not equipped.
Let me jump right up to the present now I will explain why I had been wrong with my conclusion, and why I am even more astonished than ever with what I have seen:
Today I fired up my BT game, and stripped down my three wizards to each hold one staff of each of the three types again, unequipped. Sure enough, the sppts of these three wizards continued to increase at a rate of +1. (I was in Mangars tower, level 1 and level 2)
I decided to drop one of the staffs, and to my surprise all the sppts of all three wizards continued to increase. I moved around bit and changed levels just to check that I wasn't on a special square, and the increments continued.
I then progressively unequipped and dropped ALL items by ALL 6 characters, and got rid of my special character slot (demon lord). To my total astonishment, the sppts of the three wizards CONTINUED to increment!
So my new conclusion is that I seem to have unlocked something that continuosly increments my wizard's spellpoints. My wizards are extremely high level, but I don't think that has anything to do with this. This incrementing all started when I started experimenting with the three staffs. I strongly suspect the key moment may have been when I had the three staff types held by three wizards. Perhaps this state unlocked some secret feature of the game?
Of course, the sppts stop incrementing when they reach the spellcasters' maximums. So I simply kept casting RESTs to be able to see the continuous incrementing.
I am using the same standard tape image of the C64 game that I have been using for years, and until now it has behaved normally with respect to the sppts.
If anyone is interest in seeing this with their own eyes, then feel free to PM me and I will gladly send you my CCS64 snapshot image file which can be loaded into CCS64 emulator.
Perhaps I can fish out some older snapshot image files and attempt the repeat the staff 'magic trick'...
I feel a bit like the CERN scientists reporting their faster than light results. Like them, I invite the community to help me explain this discovery, and perhaps replicate it confirming it, or maybe even explain it with something that I have missed.
EDIT: Well I loaded a snapshot save of my party from 5 days ago, before I did my recent experiments with the staffs, the three wizards already were exhibiting the +1 sppt rate even when all items were dropped.
My chars have been carrying staffs for years so this feaky feature my yet have been triggered by some staff combination... but it could have also been caused buy anything as I can't pinpoint the moment it started.
I have 3 month old backup save of the same party, and the feature is not exhibited there.
Maybe the levels of the wizards has caused it. They were level 169 in the save that didn't have the feature, and are level 175 now. A ridiciously high level I agree, but these are my legitimately developed characters, developed from my childhood from level 2.
If any one has one of those cheating hex editors, please could you try testing a wizard with a level of 175+ to see if this sppt incrementing feature can be duplicated?
Again, if anyone would like to see this for yourself, I would be happy to send on the snapshot, or I'd be happy for anyone to host it or publish it.
Last edited by Flanimal on Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yes, but I wasn't expecting this at all.
There are still tests I can do, such as going to the guild, deleting all characters, create a new spellfcaster, and see if the state still persists in the dungeons.
I do apologise for my initial inaccurate conclusions with the three staffs.
Now it seems that only the Mage staff has a +1 sppt feature, when equipped.
It is fascinating that this stacks on top of my wizards now default +1 sptp rate, giving a rate of +2 when any of my wizards equip a mage staff.
EDIT
Reporting my latest findings.
I returned to the guild and removed all 6 of my characters. I then created a new magician and a conjuror, took them into the wine cellar, casted a couple of spells and watched their sppt behaviour- their sppts did not increment.
That suggested that it was something specific to my characters, maybe their high levels.
So as a further experiment, I reloaded my party, removed a couple of chars, created a new magician and a conjuror, went into the wine cellar, casted spells, dropped everything, and to my surprise, the sppts of the two new spellcasters DID increment along with my seasoned spellcasters!!
So level is not the cause. Instead, it appears to be something about the group.... more results soon.
There are still tests I can do, such as going to the guild, deleting all characters, create a new spellfcaster, and see if the state still persists in the dungeons.
I do apologise for my initial inaccurate conclusions with the three staffs.
Now it seems that only the Mage staff has a +1 sppt feature, when equipped.
It is fascinating that this stacks on top of my wizards now default +1 sptp rate, giving a rate of +2 when any of my wizards equip a mage staff.
EDIT
Reporting my latest findings.
I returned to the guild and removed all 6 of my characters. I then created a new magician and a conjuror, took them into the wine cellar, casted a couple of spells and watched their sppt behaviour- their sppts did not increment.
That suggested that it was something specific to my characters, maybe their high levels.
So as a further experiment, I reloaded my party, removed a couple of chars, created a new magician and a conjuror, went into the wine cellar, casted spells, dropped everything, and to my surprise, the sppts of the two new spellcasters DID increment along with my seasoned spellcasters!!
So level is not the cause. Instead, it appears to be something about the group.... more results soon.
I'm sorry chaps, I just haven't managed to pin this one down to a logical explanation. The experiments that I have done have given inconsistent results, and so I am non the wiser as to what the cause is of this weird sppt incrementing of ny three high level wizards.
The bottom line is this:
* The unexplained +1 sppt rate continues for my three wizards, and occurs in all the various dungeons. (I'm not complaining, I am just astonished)
* The effect stacks if used with the mage staff, giving a rate of +2
* The only place where the weird effect is not seen in in Skara Brea in daylight, as the sppts increase at the normal +1 which is attributed to the daylight. At night however, the mysterious +1 rate can again be seen.
I will now attempt to rename this thread to something like "long winded explanation of a very weird spell point incrementing bug?", as it has totally failed at its original intention to precisely define the three staffs!!!
As the strongest, though far from conclusive (and less so proven), theory is that this weird effect is related to the high levels of my party characters, I will stick a quick note in the thread relating to the effects resulting from the high levels of my characters.
Again, if anyone wishes to see/verify/investigate this unexplained sppt weirdness, PM me and you are welcome to the snapshot image file.
The bottom line is this:
* The unexplained +1 sppt rate continues for my three wizards, and occurs in all the various dungeons. (I'm not complaining, I am just astonished)
* The effect stacks if used with the mage staff, giving a rate of +2
* The only place where the weird effect is not seen in in Skara Brea in daylight, as the sppts increase at the normal +1 which is attributed to the daylight. At night however, the mysterious +1 rate can again be seen.
I will now attempt to rename this thread to something like "long winded explanation of a very weird spell point incrementing bug?", as it has totally failed at its original intention to precisely define the three staffs!!!
As the strongest, though far from conclusive (and less so proven), theory is that this weird effect is related to the high levels of my party characters, I will stick a quick note in the thread relating to the effects resulting from the high levels of my characters.
Again, if anyone wishes to see/verify/investigate this unexplained sppt weirdness, PM me and you are welcome to the snapshot image file.
Hi Flanimal,
I wonder, if this behaviour, random or not, also occurs if your party were in the disk version of the C64 game.
I suspect a bug in the tape version, since the game code had to be heavily condensed for the tape version and probably theres where a
bug sneaked into the code?!?
Just an assumption
I wonder, if this behaviour, random or not, also occurs if your party were in the disk version of the C64 game.
I suspect a bug in the tape version, since the game code had to be heavily condensed for the tape version and probably theres where a
bug sneaked into the code?!?
Just an assumption
I'm with ZeroZero (Hi! Long time no see!) on this one. I'd say that this might be a miss in the code; somebody overlooked the option that the value for this variable may get more than 1 at some occation - my guess is the combination of Spellpoint-areas in the Castle in combination with the Mage Staff. Ponder the following:
(Variable value: 0 - applied to every character individually)
Mages are created and recruited in the Guild and let out to roam the streets of Skara Brae. Outside there is daylight - which should give a normal +1 value to spellpoint regeneration. Let's go out.
(Variable value: 1 - value 0 stored away to be retrieved at other point)
Aha! We're regenerating! Since the programmers were aware that we might have the Mage Staff, a simple routine of Increase or Decrease value cannot be used as it shouldn't be stackable. Instead the value is stored away and replaced by 1. Let's go to Kylearan's!
(Variable value: 0)
We're inside again. The game takes the stored away value and sets it back to normal. We now find a Mage Staff - as soon as we get it in the inventory, it adds to +1 regeneration for that user. We now have...
(Variable value: 1)
Let's go out and go to the Castle!
(Variable value: 1 - value 1 stored away to be retrieved at other point)
Aha! The game is smart - we store away the value and replace it with a +1 spellpoint regeneration, like last time. The Mage Staff +1 will return when daylight is not applicable. So, into the castle...
(Variable value: 1)
We're in the Castle,the Mage Staff gives us a +1 in spell regeneration.. We locate ourselves +1 Spell Regeneration square and gain...
(Variable value: 2)
And here's the point. The engine is not built for handling +2. It have never occured to the programmers that this might happen. Sometime during leaving or entering that square subtracts the wrong +1, the top added one - leaving you with the +1 that the square gave you in the bottom. It's even possible that it makes the game think you have permanently dropped the Mage Staff for a moment. Although, when the game checks the inventory, The Mage Staff immediatly sets back the +1 that was subtracted - you still got it. Whatever happens, you end up with variable value 2. Now we leave the castle, step out in the sunlight and get...
(Variable value: 1 - value 2 stored away to be retrieved at other point)
Sunlight once again replace the actual value with 1. But here's the interesting thing. Once in the Guild, you drop or trade the magestaff - removing its +1. And you are left with...
A permanent +1 value of your spell regeneration.
(Variable value: 1 - the Mage Stuff bonus subtracted when item lost).
Does this seem plausible? I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with your characters high levels.
(Variable value: 0 - applied to every character individually)
Mages are created and recruited in the Guild and let out to roam the streets of Skara Brae. Outside there is daylight - which should give a normal +1 value to spellpoint regeneration. Let's go out.
(Variable value: 1 - value 0 stored away to be retrieved at other point)
Aha! We're regenerating! Since the programmers were aware that we might have the Mage Staff, a simple routine of Increase or Decrease value cannot be used as it shouldn't be stackable. Instead the value is stored away and replaced by 1. Let's go to Kylearan's!
(Variable value: 0)
We're inside again. The game takes the stored away value and sets it back to normal. We now find a Mage Staff - as soon as we get it in the inventory, it adds to +1 regeneration for that user. We now have...
(Variable value: 1)
Let's go out and go to the Castle!
(Variable value: 1 - value 1 stored away to be retrieved at other point)
Aha! The game is smart - we store away the value and replace it with a +1 spellpoint regeneration, like last time. The Mage Staff +1 will return when daylight is not applicable. So, into the castle...
(Variable value: 1)
We're in the Castle,the Mage Staff gives us a +1 in spell regeneration.. We locate ourselves +1 Spell Regeneration square and gain...
(Variable value: 2)
And here's the point. The engine is not built for handling +2. It have never occured to the programmers that this might happen. Sometime during leaving or entering that square subtracts the wrong +1, the top added one - leaving you with the +1 that the square gave you in the bottom. It's even possible that it makes the game think you have permanently dropped the Mage Staff for a moment. Although, when the game checks the inventory, The Mage Staff immediatly sets back the +1 that was subtracted - you still got it. Whatever happens, you end up with variable value 2. Now we leave the castle, step out in the sunlight and get...
(Variable value: 1 - value 2 stored away to be retrieved at other point)
Sunlight once again replace the actual value with 1. But here's the interesting thing. Once in the Guild, you drop or trade the magestaff - removing its +1. And you are left with...
A permanent +1 value of your spell regeneration.
(Variable value: 1 - the Mage Stuff bonus subtracted when item lost).
Does this seem plausible? I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with your characters high levels.
/Twoflower
I had been saving game as a CCS64 snapshot, which saves the entire emulated machine state.
It occurred to me, that I could save the party to tape, reload the game afresh, load the party in from the tape, and see whether the weird dungeon spellpoint increasing persists, i.e. this will tell me whether this weird state is captured in the party save tape file.
First, I loaded in my CCS64 snapshot and dropped all equipment, and I verified that the spell point increasing was still happening to my wizards in the Wine cellar, and it was.
So then I ventured back to the Guild, and pressed 's' to save the party to a new tape file.
I then reset the emulator and loaded Bards Tale from scratch, from the Bards Tale tape (i.e. not a snapshot).
After the game loaded up, I selected 'l' and loaded my recently saved party from the new tape file.
With this done, I ventured off to the wine cellar again to investigate whether the spellpoint increasing behaviour had persisted. The result was that the spellpoint increase had GONE. Normal behaviour had resumed!
This confirms that it must be a bug (Kudos to those who came to this conclusion early
), and that the bug is in the program side of things, and not saved as part of the party data.
What's interesting is the question of how I caused this bug in the first place. Let me point out that I played this version of BT1 for probably >500 hours in lifetime (exploring every square and completing it), and had never seen this bug before until now.
Thanks everyone for your time looking into this bug.
EDIT
I wonder too whether this bug might also be in the disk version. Since I have never seen it before in the tape version, I suspect it must be a bug that is not easy to reproduce, hence might well be present in the disk version too.
I suspect some staff faffing, perhaps on a magic spellpoint increasing square may well be the route to reproducing it.
The tape version is compacted heavily for encounters, level loading and graphics/sound, but I would have thought that the coding for the spellpoints would have been untouched by the porting work, aside from probable relocation in memory.
I certainly will be interested in attempting to reproduce this bug. There are only a limited number of things/places that affect sppts after all.
It occurred to me, that I could save the party to tape, reload the game afresh, load the party in from the tape, and see whether the weird dungeon spellpoint increasing persists, i.e. this will tell me whether this weird state is captured in the party save tape file.
First, I loaded in my CCS64 snapshot and dropped all equipment, and I verified that the spell point increasing was still happening to my wizards in the Wine cellar, and it was.
So then I ventured back to the Guild, and pressed 's' to save the party to a new tape file.
I then reset the emulator and loaded Bards Tale from scratch, from the Bards Tale tape (i.e. not a snapshot).
After the game loaded up, I selected 'l' and loaded my recently saved party from the new tape file.
With this done, I ventured off to the wine cellar again to investigate whether the spellpoint increasing behaviour had persisted. The result was that the spellpoint increase had GONE. Normal behaviour had resumed!
This confirms that it must be a bug (Kudos to those who came to this conclusion early
), and that the bug is in the program side of things, and not saved as part of the party data.What's interesting is the question of how I caused this bug in the first place. Let me point out that I played this version of BT1 for probably >500 hours in lifetime (exploring every square and completing it), and had never seen this bug before until now.
Thanks everyone for your time looking into this bug.
EDIT
Hi ZeroZero,ZeroZero wrote:Hi Flanimal,
I wonder, if this behaviour, random or not, also occurs if your party were in the disk version of the C64 game.
I suspect a bug in the tape version, since the game code had to be heavily condensed for the tape version and probably theres where a
bug sneaked into the code?!?
Just an assumption
I wonder too whether this bug might also be in the disk version. Since I have never seen it before in the tape version, I suspect it must be a bug that is not easy to reproduce, hence might well be present in the disk version too.
I suspect some staff faffing, perhaps on a magic spellpoint increasing square may well be the route to reproducing it.
The tape version is compacted heavily for encounters, level loading and graphics/sound, but I would have thought that the coding for the spellpoints would have been untouched by the porting work, aside from probable relocation in memory.
I certainly will be interested in attempting to reproduce this bug. There are only a limited number of things/places that affect sppts after all.
Last edited by Flanimal on Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Twoflower wrote:I'm with ZeroZero (Hi! Long time no see!) on this one. I'd say that this might be a miss in the code; somebody overlooked the option that the value for this variable may get more than 1 at some occation - my guess is the combination of Spellpoint-areas in the Castle in combination with the Mage Staff. Ponder the following:
...
Does this seem plausible? I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with your characters high levels.
Hi Twoflower,
Thanks for your thoughts on this. It is looking like your suppositions are VERY close to the truth!
I think they are very plausible. The idea of a value being stored away and retrieved rather than being reset would indeed explain how the effect can be masked by daylight, but return at night.EDIT
ok I have started investigating to try to reproduce the bug, and have found one point of interest already.
If a magic user is holding more than one mage staff, then he will ONLY get the spell point increase if he equips the first mage staff in the list. If he equips the second or third mage staff, then no spell point increase occurs. Can anyone verify this behaviour on the C64 Disk version?
I'm trying to think of a full list of everything that changes spell points, aside from spell casting of course. My list so far is:
1. Mage staff for +1 sppt rate
2. sppt +1 squares (Is the behaviour a rate or a 'per-movement' basis?)
3. sppt -1 squares? Do these exist?
4. daylight for +1 sppt rate
5. Conjurstaff halves spell prices
6. Rosco
Can anyone think of any others?
